Although perhaps it started somewhat earlier, the decade of the 1960s
produced a love affair between Americans and space exploration... and,
particularly the astronauts that were involved in the space program. It
undoubtedly started with the space race between America and the Soviet
Union, and the launch of Sputnik by the U.S.S.R. in 1957. Then came the
bold challenge by President John F. Kennedy before a joint session of
Congress on May 25, 1961 - "I believe that this nation should commit itself
to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the
moon and returning him safely to earth." And, then, on July 21, 1969
astronauts Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, flying on Apollo 11, set foot on
the surface of the moon. And, as they say, "the rest is history."
Indeed, 4-H got caught up in this whole astronaut and space era in a
number of ways. But historically, space and flight show up in 4-H history
long before the 1960s.
Delegates to the 1931 National 4-H Club Congress in Chicago were
inspired to get to meet a great national hero - the man who flew over both
the North and South Poles - Rear Admiral Richard E. Byrd.
One of the major guests attending the 1932 National 4-H Club
Congress, handing out awards and honoring the winners, was the famous
aviatrix Amelia Earhart.
In 1933, Thomas E. Wilson brought a pair of aviators to National 4-H Congress
who had become famous only the week before. Marine Major Chester Fordney and Navy
LCDR T. G. "Tex" Settle made America's first stratospheric balloon
ascension on November 20, 1933 in a balloon that had a gondola brightly
inscribed "A Century of Progress", the theme of the 1933 World's Fair. The
balloon reached a height of 61,237 feet, a record that stood for many
years. It was the first successful trip by man into the upper atmosphere.
The pair proved to be popular guests at the 1933 National 4-H Club Congress
which took place just a few days after their well-publicized trip into
Model Rocketry Becomes Popular 4-H Project
As the space craze swept America beginning during the 1960s,
particularly among young people, it is not surprising that 4-H was
A photo feature on page 55 of the December 1959 National 4-H News
magazine for volunteer leaders illustrates this passion:
Room for Rockets in 4-H? How far should traditional 4-H projects move
over for science? This Iowa 4-H club may stimulate your thinking.
At Burlington, Iowa, a group of high school and junior high school
boys have what they think is the first 4-H club with its primary purpose to
build and test model rockets.
The advisor to the group, Thomas R. Martin, reports that work on
rockets was going on by a number of the boys even before they joined the 4-H
Rocketry has since been the absorbing interest of the members of this
urban 4-H Club.
The 18 members of the group suspended all rocket making and firing
work last January, to devote two full months to drawing up a constitution
for the Burlington Rocket Society, making safety rules and studying
rocketry. Then they began building and firing rockets of various sizes and
building other equipment needed in testing, remote firing and tracking.
Under supervision of five adults, all with backgrounds in chemistry
and engineering, the group has built more than 50 small rockets, mostly
less than 18 inches in length. Two larger rockets, of five and seven feet,
have also been made.
Twenty-six of the small rockets have been fired with some success,
and one rocket built by the group reached an altitude of 900 feet.
The boys have an 8- by 14-foot test bunker built of heavy timber,
where they can measure up to 1,000 pounds of thrust. Adjacent to it is a
30-acre firing range for small rockets.
These space-minded 4-H'ers inspect full-scale rockets and launching
facilities whenever they can, and meantime, right in their own back yards,
they have one of the most dramatic of projects... aiming high in rocketry as
well as in life.
The Fall 1969 National 4-H Service Committee Comments newsletter
reports on the National 4-H Electric Workshop in Minneapolis where
representatives from over 30 states exchanged new ideas, methods and
literature to update and modernize their local electric programs. One of
the highlights of the day-long event was the presentation of David B.
Miller, a 1968 national 4-H Electric winner from New York. Not only did he
tell his audience how the electric program had helped him, he also
challenged them to find better ideas and develop better techniques and more
modern programs to interest todays youth. The Nassau County youth told the
delegates that while the present 4-H Electric program is exactly what is
needed to provide members with an excellent foundation of fundamentals in
electricity, "it is inadequate in todays age of technological
sophistication. The fundamental need is to reach young people, in the
ghetto, inner city, suburb and on the farm with advanced projects which
will capture the imagination of older members before they become junior
high dropouts." A big part of how to capture this imagination of teenagers
centers on space exploration and rocketry in a new era.
David B. Miller of Oceanside, New York, discusses space travel to Mars with C. V. Roseberry,
regional vice president for Westinghouse Electric Corporation at the time he was designated
a 1968 national Electric winner at National 4-H Congress in Chicago.
During the late 1960s a 4-H Aerospace Development Committee was formed
with the purpose of developing the structure and content of a 4-H Aerospace
The National Aerospace Development Committee included: Dr. Edward
Frickey, State 4-H Leader, Youth, Purdue University, Indiana, committee
chairman; Mrs. Georgia T. Roberson, associate extension specialist (4-H),
Clemson University, South Carolina; William Shane, assistant state leader,
University of Idaho; Stanley R. Meinen, assistant state leader, 4-H,
University of Minnesota; Jesse James, state leader, 4-H, New Hampshire; Dr.
Kemp L. Swiney, program leader, 4-H-Youth Development, Extension Service,
USDA; Dr. Jerry Macklin, educational director, National 4-H Foundation; and
T. W. Thompson, director of Program Services, National 4-H Service
At their first meeting in February 1970 at Purdue University, Dr.
Swiney reported that 29 states had indicated some activity with aerospace
projects in 1969. He also pointed out that there is a tremendous need for
aviation education. In the next ten years personnel requirements include
39,000 air crew members, 225,000 airplane mechanics, 300,000 pilots,
137,000 stewardesses and 100,000 air traffic controllers.
The committee, at this first meeting, resolved to develop a broad
program that offers many opportunities for projects. Immediate identifiable
projects included those dealing with aircraft, aviation, and rocketry.
Aviation B models, flight, aircraft, the airport and airspace; Rocketry B
models, flight, the rocket, launching and outer space. Self-determined
projects also would be encouraged.
Committee members were assigned to develop specific sub-topics of the
As guidelines for the development of materials, committee members were
encourage to keep members= materials experience-centered, provide for
learning experiences and for flexibility. It was decided to aim first
program materials at the 12-16 age group. Materials for other age groups
would be developed later.
Additional information on this development committee or on resulting
materials have not yet been located.
For a number of years, Estes Industries, Penrose, Colorado, as a 4-H
partner, carried promotional display ads in the National 4-H News magazine.
The ads promoted leaders= packets, model rockets, Porta-Pad launchers,
Solar Launch Control Systems and related items for sale at discounted
While 4-H Rocketry was a project offered through community clubs in
many counties across the country, there also were a number of Model Rocket
4-H Clubs that were started with rocketry as their sole project area. A
brief article in the February, 1979 issue of National 4-H News discusses
the Sullivan County 4-H Model Rocketry Club in Lopez, Pennsylvania and how
the members spent three days at the Pennsylvania Ag Progress Days launching
rockets, giving demonstrations and talking about 4-H and their model
rocketry club to hundreds of kids and parents attending the show.
The May 1980 National 4-H News carried a photo feature on model
rocketry... including the front cover photo.
The article, authored by Alan S. Fisher, a teen leader in the
aerospace and photography projects in Audrain County, Missouri, describes
how 27 Audrain County 4-H members were experiencing the thrill and
excitement of constructing and launching their own model rockets through
the county-wide aerospace project. Fisher says, "Model rocketry is a
rapidly growing hobby and sport as well as a valuable educational tool
emerging throughout the nation. Now 4-H has joined its ranks, integrating
the satisfaction of model construction and craftsmanship into a project
teaching the fundamentals of rocket design, solid propellant engine
operation, aerodynamics and space science."
He continues, "We planned our project first to demonstrate how an
inexpensive hobby can be used as an amateur scientific tool, teaching the
basics of aerodynamics. At the same time, the youngsters experience a sense
of achievement as they watch their own handiwork soar into the sky and
return to be recovered safely."
While their first meeting covered the rudiments of model rocket design
and safety procedures, the fun began at the second meeting when members sat
down with rocketry catalogs from several companies and chose their model
from the hundreds of designs available commercially. There were several
meetings of a workshop nature as members built their rockets... and, then
the launching day in a farm pasture brought smiles and success.
A live demonstration at the Audrain County 4-H Fair displayed bursts of applause
from spectators signaling the thrill as rocket after rocket successfully
lifted off the three launch pads. The kids demonstrated their skill at
assembling and launching a working rocket for curious onlookers, parents
4-H Television Series
Blue Sky Below My Feet
In the 4-H television series "Blue Sky Below My Feet",NASA and 4-H
joined together to explore space technology and how it related to life on
earth. The series, produced in 1985, consisted of three half-hour
television programs featuring:
- NASA shuttle astronauts
- Impulse - the animated satellite
- Members of the Blue Sky 4-H Club
- Actual scenes of astronauts in space and training for space at the Johnson Space Center.
The television series was a joint effort between Arthur Young
International; Extension Service, United States Department of Agriculture;
State Extension Services of the Land Grant Universities; National 4-H
Council; and National Aeronautics and Space Administration cooperating.
Programs were produced by The Production Center at Arthur Young, Reston,
Virginia in partnership with 4-H Youth and Home Economics & Human
Nutrition, Extension Service, USDA. Educational and promotional materials
were produced by staff at Arthur Young, National 4-H Council, Extension
Service, USDA and the Cooperative Extension Service, Virginia Polytechnic
Institute and State University.
Some segments in the series involved astronauts who are 4-H alumni -
Don Williams, Mack Lee, Bob Crippin and Ellison Onizuka - filming in
Houston at the Johnson Space Center. Additional segments were filmed at the
Philadelphia School of Textiles and Design and at Campbell Soup Company in
Camden, New Jersey. 4-H members from Maryland selected through an audition
process, participated in filming of additional segments.
The three programs in the series included:
- Show #1 - Mission: Gravity and Forces
Discover what gravity is: what it's like to be weightless, how to work
in space, how to eat in space, how to sleep in space, and how gravity
affects our lives on earth. The program demonstrates how forces of one kind
are used to balance others through complex teamwork.
- Show #2 - Mission: Fiber and Fabrics
Find out how space suits are made: how the different layers of fabric
work; if astronauts wear the same fabrics in space that we wear on earth;
why we wear certain fabrics for sports, others for our jobs, and others at
home; the difference between man-made and natural fibers. The program
intends to develop and promote the use of consumer skills including
selection, purchase and care of fiber and textile products. It also intends
to create an awareness of the diversified and constant use of textiles and
textile products in industrial and home use; their impact on the economy,
world trade, and scientific development; and their contribution
- Show #3 - Mission: Food and Nutrition
Explore how food is prepared for space: how astronauts eat in space,
what kinds of foods astronauts eat in space, how good nutrition affects
health and the ability to perform various tasks. The program shows
similarities between the nutritional requirements of our bodies while on
earth and in space.
To complete the "Blue Sky" missions a full payload of activities were
created. A standing committee of Extension 4-H specialists oversaw the
content of the series. States represented on the committee included
Connecticut, Georgia, Michigan and Oregon. The series was test marked
through the Dade County, Florida school and 4-H systems.
For additional information on the Blue Sky Below My Feet programs,
the impressive Blue Sky TV Series Premiere, and how the series was used,
visit the television segment of the 4-H history website:
In addition to the "Blue Sky Below My Feet 4-H television series, the
popular 4-H TV series on nutrition - "Mulligan Stew" - also had a complete
program dedicated to foods in the space age and where new kinds of food
will be grown to feed the world's people. The Mulligan Stew gang in the
program "Count Down 4-4-3-2" learns about food directly from the NASA food
specialists and from astronauts at the NASA headquarters in Houston. The
young TV viewers learn about new kinds of foods being grown, new kinds of
packaging and about foods used on space flights.
Additional information on Mulligan Stew can be found in the same
section of the 4-H history preservation website as the Blue Sky TV series
Astronauts and 4-H
In 1961, when President Kennedy envisioned an American on the moon by
the end of the decade, NASA turned to the George C. Marshall Space Flight
Center in Huntsville, Alabama to create the incredibly powerful rocket
needed to turn this presidential vision into reality. The Marshall Space
Flight Center had just opened up the previous year with Dr. Wernher von
Braun as its director. In 1966 when the National 4-H Report to the Nation
team visited Alabama, U.S. Senator John Sparkman, a distinguished Alabama
4-H alumnus, was proud to take the team to Huntsville to tour the Space
Flight Center and to personally meet with Dr. von Braun who showed them
Members of the 4-H Report to the Nation team conferred with Dr.
Wernher von Braun, director, George C. Marshall Space Flight Center,
Huntsville, Alabama, during their recent visit to Georgia and Alabama.
Pictured from left are: Joe Day, Nebo, Ky; Martha Lee Poland, Morgantown,
W. Va.; Dr. Von Braun; Gayle Stubbs, Morris, Ala.; Senator Sparkman; and
Jack Bossard, Canisteo, N.Y. (from Summer 1966 National 4-H Service
Alan B. Shepard, Jr., Cmdr, USN
Navy Cmdr Alan B. Shepherd, Jr. first spaceman in his historic flight
over the Atlantic on May 6, 1961 was awarded the National 4-H Alumni Award
in 1962. As a 4-H'er in New Hampshire, Shepard's major projects were
gardening and poultry.
Astronaut Alan Shepherd took interest in 4-H model rocketry clubs
springing up across the country. Here he presents an autographed model
rocket to 4-H'er Billie Atwood of Barrington, New Hampshire in 1972. (from
August 1972 National 4-H News)
James A. Lovell, Capt, USN
Captain James A. Lovell, former astronaut on Apollo 8 and 13 space
flights, was the keynote speaker at the 1986 National 4-H Congress in
Captain Lovell authored a 3-page photo feature in the February 1969
issue of National 4-H News entitled "Message from Apollo 8." He begins
the article with: "By the time you read this, the flight of Apollo 8 should
be history. Frank Borman, William Anders and I were scheduled to blast off
from Cape Kennedy on December 21 to begin a 500,000-mile journey to the
moon and back. The entire trip was to last a little more than six days,
with Christmas Eve to be spent orbiting the moon. Fantastic? Perhaps, but
it's a fact of the times in which we live. It's also only a preview of
bigger and more exciting things to come...
As the President's Consultant on Physical Fitness and Sports, Lovell
quickly moved the subject from space to health. He writes in the feature
that America is making great strides in education and with efforts to
eliminate various forms of discrimination... "all well and good, but what
about the health and physical fitness of our citizens?... it is widely
believed today that we have solved all except two or three of our major
health problems and that physical exercise has ceased to be important. Both
ideas have as much validity as the thought that there are no more worlds to
He ends with, "Most of you probably have no desire to be either
astronauts or athletes. You may never be faced with a serious emergency,
and you may never have to call upon those deep reserves of energy and
strength, but it's nice to know they are there. They help you keep all your
options and opportunities open. See you on the moon someday."
Jerry L Ross, Colonel, USAF
Astronaut Jerry Ross is a veteran of seven space shuttle missions,
tied for the record holder for most spaceflights with Franklin Chang-Diaz.
A native of Crown Point, Indiana, Ross was a 4-H'er while growing up. As a
project to pay back 4-H for the good things it had done for him, Ross
launched a project to take seeds from the state trees of the 50 states with
him on an Atlantis mission in 1991.
State 4-H offices were encouraged to send in 10 seeds from their state
trees. The seeds were refrigerated to prevent them from germinating. After
the seeds returned from space they were sent to 4-H clubs in their home
states to grow into seedlings and be planted on either Arbor Day or Earth
Day of 1992. All but three states participated. During the mission, Ross
participated in the first spacewalk by Americans in five years.
Ellison S. Onizuka, Lt Col, USAF
Lt. Col. Ellison S. Onizuka, NASA astronaut and Hawaii 4-H alumnus,
was very active supporting and promoting 4-H at both the national level and
in Hawaii during the mid-1980's.
Unfortunately with the great tragedy of the Space Shuttle Challenger
disaster on January 28, 1986, 4-H lost a great friend. The Onizuka Fund for
Excellence was established at the National 4-H Council to honor Ellison
Onizuka and the crew of the Challenger. Hundreds of contributions for the
named fund were received from 4-H members, families, 4-H staff members,
leader councils, state 4-H foundations, individuals and corporate friends.
During the opening assembly of the 1986 National 4-H Congress in Chicago,
Mrs. Lorna Onizuka presented the 4-H flag her husband carried on the Space
Shuttle Discovery mission in 1985 to 4-H, stating "The activities Ellison
participated in and learned from in 4-H, the friendships he developed, were
treasured throughout his life... please accept this flag on his behalf. I
know that he's pleased to know that it's being returned to you."
The flag is currently on display at the National 4-H Youth Conference Center in
Chevy Chase, Maryland.
Peggy Whitson, NASA Mission Commander and Researcher
Peggy Whitson, 4-H alum, was born in Mount Ayr, Iowa and grew up on a farm outside the nearby town of Beaconsfield. Receiving her doctorate degree in biochemistry from Rice University, Whitson became a biochemistry researcher, NASA astronaut and former NASA Chief Astronaut.
Her first space mission was in 2002, with an extended stay aboard the International Space Station as a member of Expedition 5. Whitson’s second mission launched October 10, 2007, with her as the first female commander of the ISS with Expedition 16. With her two long-duration stays aboard the ISS, Whitson is NASA’s most experienced female astronaut, with just over 376 days in space. She also has performed a total of six career spacewalks, adding up to 39 hours and 46 minutes.
Chicks in Space
John Vellinger (from Summer 1989 National 4-H Council Quarterly)
With the Challenger disaster of January 1986, besides Ellison
Oniuzuka, 4-H had another connection. The science project of 4-H'er John C.
Vellinger was part of the payload aboard the ill-fated space craft. The
science project, "Chicks in Space," was lost. However, the experiment went
on to successfully re-fly on the space shuttle Discovery. When Discovery
lifted off in March, 1989, carrying Vellinger's chick embryo experiment,
Purdue University senior and Indiana 4-H alumnus got his second chance at
finishing a project which he began when he was a ninth-grade 4-H member.
The experiment consisted of a special incubator designed to cradle the
fertile chicken eggs during their journey. Vellinger said his experience in
wiring and building circuits as a 4-H electric energy project member was
valuable in his work designing and building the incubator. He reconstructed
the experiment to carry chick embryos at two different stages of
development with the weightlessness of space. Vellinger then studied chicks
hatched from the returned embryos against a control group of earth-hatched
chicks to explore the effects of zero gravity on the development of bone,
muscle, and organ tissue in animal embryos. The experiment started the
discussion of whether or not gravity is required for reproduction of some
species, important for consideration of long-term space travel by human
The idea for the space chicks project began to take shape when
Vellinger was a student at Tecumseh Junior High School in Lafayette,
Indiana. He entered a contest to propose an idea for a shuttle experiment.
Not winning the first contest, Vellinger redesigned the project several
times before succeeding in getting it selected on the third try.
Space Camp - 4-H Missions in Space
4-H and the U.S. Space & Rocket Center, home of the U.S. Space Camp,
introduced the 4-H Missions in Space program nationwide in 1990/91. Since
that beginning, more than 15,000 youth, extension staff and volunteer adult
leaders from more than 45 states and territories have participated in
various program offerings.
Located in Huntsville, Alabama, the Space Center includes Spacedome
Theater, Rocket Park, and the Education Training Center. The experiences at
the U.S. Space & Rocket Center offer a complete hands-on learning
atmosphere that often make the participants feel like they are worlds away
from its Huntsville location.
Every year the U.S. Space & Rocket Center offers a special 4-H Day at
Space Camp which includes guided museum tours, the Von Braun exhibit,
experiencing public museum simulators, presentations in Discovery Theater,
th IMAX movie, visiting Shuttle Park and Rocket Park.
4-H groups can also experience Pathfinder, a weekend of nonstop
activities exploring the history, present, and future of manned space
flight. Participants are immersed in hands-on training for a space shuttle
mission, experience both shuttle and space station simulators.
Presentations are packed with interesting facts and trivia that
participants remember long after the weekend is over. The Pathfinder
program includes the IMAX experience and astronaut training simulators. All
those who attend the Space Camp simulator training wear space suits to get
the feel of it. They are taken to simulators to learn how to fly
spacecrafts like the shuttle. They go for a ride in a centrifuge to feel
the pressure of gravity. And they experience the feeling of weightlessness
in the zero gravity simulations. They even have a contraption designed to
give them the experience of walking on the moon.
4-H National Youth Science Day - Aerospace Engineering
In an effort to highlight the highly relevant work of the land-grant
university system, expose more youth to this subject area and highlight
potential career opportunities youth might have in the field, the focus of
the 2014 National Science Experiment was aerospace engineering.
Aerospace engineering deals with the design, construction and study of the
science behind the forces and properties of aircraft, rockets, flying
craft, and spacecraft. The field also covers their aerodynamic
characteristics and behaviors, airfoil, control surfaces, lift, drag, and
Over 1,000 events were registered in all 50 states and reported around the
world for 4-H National Youth Science Day 2014. Some 9,200 Rockets to the
Rescue experiment kits were sold, reaching tens of thousands of youth
across the country. The events were highly publicized in newspapers, on the
Web, social media, radio and TV - major coverage resulting in more than 366
million total media impressions.
4-H Flag Returns From Space to 4-H Headquarters
In July, 2013, representatives from NASA Headquarters Office of
Education made a special presentation to Lisa Lauxman, Director of Youth
and 4-H at NIFA, USDA. A 4-H flag was launched into space aboard the Space
Shuttle Endeavour on June 13, 2009, as part of the STS-127 mission. Lisa
received the flag framed along with photographs and other mementos from the
NASA mission. Mary Sladek, NASA Manager for Informal Education, said that
the flight of the flag commemorated the long and continuing national
collaboration between NASA and 4-H. That relationship currently includes
joint efforts in the NASA Adopt a Pixel citizen science project and 4-H
National Youth Science Day.
In addition to the 4-H flag at the U.S. 4-H Headquarters which flew on
the Space Shuttle Endeavour, and the 4-H Onizuka flag at the National 4-H
Youth Conference Center which flew to space on the Space Shuttle Discovery,
there is an additional 4-H space flag at the National 4-H Center. At the
time of the 1991 dedication of the Tennessee Dining Room in Kellogg Hall a
set of flags were also presented - a Tennessee flag which had flown over
the state capitol in Nashville donated by Governor Ned Ray McWherter and a
4-H flag which had traveled to outer space on the 1989 mission of the U.S.
Space Shuttle Atlantis, carried by Astronaut Mary Cleave.
The current Administrator of NASA, Maj. Gen. Charles Bolden, Jr., was
a 4-H'er while growing up in his native South Carolina. At NASA, Bolden has
overseen the safe transition from 30 years of space shuttle missions to a
new era of exploration focused on full utilization of the International
Space Station and space and aeronautics technology development. He has
personally traveled to orbit four times aboard the space shuttle between
1986 and 1994, commanding two of the missions and piloting two others. His
flights included deployment of the Hubble Space Telescope and the first
joint United States-Russian shuttle mission, which featured a cosmonaut as
a member of his crew.
Contemporary 4-H Aerospace Program
For well over 50 years, 4-H has been offering a variety of programs
dealing with space. What started out as being called model rocketry
projects may now be called the 4-H Aerospace project in many states.
At the national level there is the National 4-H Engineering Challenge
– the premier event within the National 4-H Program that allows talented
youth from around the country to assemble together to showcase their
knowledge and skills in a variety of individual and team-based engineering
contests and activities. Held over a three day period each fall in West
Lafayette, Indiana, with Purdue University being host to the event,
aerospace is one of the components, along with such project areas as
robotics, electric, computer, bicycle, tractor, small engine and welding.
In addition to National 4-H Engineering Challenge, there is the
growing 4-H National Youth Science Day. Less than a decade old, this
special event involves millions of young people across America on this very
special day each October... during National 4-H Week. 4-H National Science
Day has become the premiere day for 4-H to celebrate science highlighting
such areas as robotics, wind power, agricultural science, environmental
science, alternative energy, geospatial technology, rocketry and aerospace
While educational resources are offered at the national level for
aerospace projects in 4-H, a number of states have their own materials –
some still called "4-H Rocketry."
Resources are also readily used in this 4-H project area from the
National Association of Rocketry as well as from commercial sources such as
Estes Industries and Quest Aerospace.
While planning, building and launching a model rocket may seem like
the main object to a young boy or girl in this project area, there are
other important project components that have remained consistent throughout
it's history. Safety is a number one issue. And, keeping accurate notes and
records, understanding flying conditions and appropriate launch areas are a
The 4-H involvement with space – from Amelia Earhart and Admiral
Byrd... Neil Armstrong and James Lovell... Ellison Onizuka and the
Challenger disaster... a 4-H space television Series with NASA... National
Space Camp and National 4-H Engineering Challenge events... space, indeed,
is an important part of both 4-H history and 4-H today.